There are calls for 's head from the peanut gallery. Here is a sampling of comments made over at the Extra Baggs blog when Renteria is in the lineup:
"Why don't we just release Renteria and eat his contract? I would much rather have a downs or Rohlinger up here knowing at least we get some speed and young blood. Renteria is finished."
"I think Bochy has slipped into some fantasy world where he is a coach of a tee-ball team and he makes sure everybody plays. Renteria is the kid who wanders off from his shortstop position, blowing spit bubbles and picking dandelions. "Don't worry little Edgar! You're doing great! Edgar! C'mon back. We'll go for ice cream soon."
"Renteria needs to retire already. I predict at least two double plays from him."
I am not sure exactly what is causing this hatred, maybe it was his poor performance last season because this season he has been better then most shortstops in the National League this season.
To prove it let's play a little game I will call "Where's Edgar?" look at the following list of NL Short Stops with at least 190 PA and try to find Renteria:
| Name |
BB%
|
K%
|
BB/K
|
AVG
|
OBP
|
SLG
|
OPS
|
ISO
|
wOBA
|
| Player 1 |
8.90%
|
14.50%
|
0.68
|
0.326
|
0.387
|
0.504
|
0.890
|
0.177
|
0.391
|
| Player 2 |
9.40%
|
17.00%
|
0.63
|
0.306
|
0.375
|
0.502
|
0.877
|
0.196
|
0.385
|
| Player 3 |
10.90%
|
15.70%
|
0.79
|
0.293
|
0.373
|
0.459
|
0.831
|
0.166
|
0.364
|
| Player 4 |
7.50%
|
15.10%
|
0.56
|
0.307
|
0.359
|
0.445
|
0.804
|
0.139
|
0.343
|
| Player 5 |
9.40%
|
15.30%
|
0.69
|
0.300
|
0.365
|
0.376
|
0.742
|
0.076
|
0.336
|
| Player 6 |
9.60%
|
20.00%
|
0.54
|
0.268
|
0.341
|
0.408
|
0.749
|
0.140
|
0.333
|
| Player 7 |
9.10%
|
19.30%
|
0.53
|
0.265
|
0.338
|
0.401
|
0.738
|
0.136
|
0.330
|
| Player 8 |
13.70%
|
18.20%
|
0.92
|
0.281
|
0.379
|
0.325
|
0.704
|
0.044
|
0.326
|
| Player 9 |
8.60%
|
18.40%
|
0.53
|
0.252
|
0.319
|
0.436
|
0.756
|
0.184
|
0.325
|
| Player 10 |
5.20%
|
11.80%
|
0.48
|
0.278
|
0.318
|
0.410
|
0.729
|
0.132
|
0.325
|
| Player 11 |
7.90%
|
17.30%
|
0.51
|
0.251
|
0.318
|
0.380
|
0.698
|
0.129
|
0.303
|
| Player 12 |
4.70%
|
23.70%
|
0.21
|
0.255
|
0.295
|
0.381
|
0.676
|
0.126
|
0.299
|
| Player 13 |
7.00%
|
14.00%
|
0.56
|
0.252
|
0.310
|
0.355
|
0.665
|
0.103
|
0.293
|
| Player 14 |
12.30%
|
11.90%
|
1.19
|
0.238
|
0.334
|
0.284
|
0.618
|
0.046
|
0.291
|
| Player 15 |
4.60%
|
21.70%
|
0.23
|
0.247
|
0.287
|
0.377
|
0.663
|
0.130
|
0.289
|
| Player 16 |
5.20%
|
11.90%
|
0.48
|
0.258
|
0.299
|
0.339
|
0.638
|
0.080
|
0.288
|
| Player 17 |
4.80%
|
12.00%
|
0.42
|
0.281
|
0.318
|
0.318
|
0.636
|
0.037
|
0.287
|
| Player 18 |
6.80%
|
12.70%
|
0.59
|
0.252
|
0.304
|
0.342
|
0.645
|
0.090
|
0.284
|
| Player 19 |
2.90%
|
14.40%
|
0.21
|
0.237
|
0.264
|
0.366
|
0.630
|
0.129
|
0.278
|
| Player 20 |
8.00%
|
15.50%
|
0.58
|
0.196
|
0.261
|
0.282
|
0.543
|
0.086
|
0.247
|
| Player 21 |
4.80%
|
30.20%
|
0.18
|
0.212
|
0.259
|
0.254
|
0.513
|
0.042
|
0.230
|
I have sorted by wOBA* and you can see that there are certainly a very wide range of caliber of hitter that have seen significant playing time this season. The leader is at .391 with the player bringing up the rear at a measly .230 the average for an NL shortstop is about.312.
So where does Renteria end up?
He is player number 5.
He hasn't been a spectacular player this season but I don't think that there were any expectations that he was supposed to be. With the comments that are made about him you would think that he would be at the bottom of every measurement that you can come up with for a shortstop.
I think that for a large part the comments are carry over from last season where he was a very poor player and the performance this season has largely been quite especially with Renteria only starting 2-3 days per week.
So to the critics out there, I agree that Renteria has lost a step or two and that he is no longer an elite shortstop. However he is still a valuable player that this season has done something that many Giants hitters in the last few years could not and that is get on base. He has played well enough that he deserves to start 2-3 or games a week and with his current line should perhaps be getting more playing time in the two whole.
Here is the full list of shortstops:
| Name |
BB%
|
K%
|
BB/K
|
AVG
|
OBP
|
SLG
|
OPS
|
ISO
|
wOBA
|
|
8.90%
|
14.50%
|
0.68
|
0.326
|
0.387
|
0.504
|
0.890
|
0.177
|
0.391
|
|
|
9.40%
|
17.00%
|
0.63
|
0.306
|
0.375
|
0.502
|
0.877
|
0.196
|
0.385
|
|
|
10.90%
|
15.70%
|
0.79
|
0.293
|
0.373
|
0.459
|
0.831
|
0.166
|
0.364
|
|
|
7.50%
|
15.10%
|
0.56
|
0.307
|
0.359
|
0.445
|
0.804
|
0.139
|
0.343
|
|
|
9.40%
|
15.30%
|
0.69
|
0.300
|
0.365
|
0.376
|
0.742
|
0.076
|
0.336
|
|
|
9.60%
|
20.00%
|
0.54
|
0.268
|
0.341
|
0.408
|
0.749
|
0.140
|
0.333
|
|
|
9.10%
|
19.30%
|
0.53
|
0.265
|
0.338
|
0.401
|
0.738
|
0.136
|
0.330
|
|
|
13.70%
|
18.20%
|
0.92
|
0.281
|
0.379
|
0.325
|
0.704
|
0.044
|
0.326
|
|
|
8.60%
|
18.40%
|
0.53
|
0.252
|
0.319
|
0.436
|
0.756
|
0.184
|
0.325
|
|
|
5.20%
|
11.80%
|
0.48
|
0.278
|
0.318
|
0.410
|
0.729
|
0.132
|
0.325
|
|
|
7.90%
|
17.30%
|
0.51
|
0.251
|
0.318
|
0.380
|
0.698
|
0.129
|
0.303
|
|
|
4.70%
|
23.70%
|
0.21
|
0.255
|
0.295
|
0.381
|
0.676
|
0.126
|
0.299
|
|
|
7.00%
|
14.00%
|
0.56
|
0.252
|
0.310
|
0.355
|
0.665
|
0.103
|
0.293
|
|
|
12.30%
|
11.90%
|
1.19
|
0.238
|
0.334
|
0.284
|
0.618
|
0.046
|
0.291
|
|
|
4.60%
|
21.70%
|
0.23
|
0.247
|
0.287
|
0.377
|
0.663
|
0.130
|
0.289
|
|
|
5.20%
|
11.90%
|
0.48
|
0.258
|
0.299
|
0.339
|
0.638
|
0.080
|
0.288
|
|
|
4.80%
|
12.00%
|
0.42
|
0.281
|
0.318
|
0.318
|
0.636
|
0.037
|
0.287
|
|
|
6.80%
|
12.70%
|
0.59
|
0.252
|
0.304
|
0.342
|
0.645
|
0.090
|
0.284
|
|
|
2.90%
|
14.40%
|
0.21
|
0.237
|
0.264
|
0.366
|
0.630
|
0.129
|
0.278
|
|
|
8.00%
|
15.50%
|
0.58
|
0.196
|
0.261
|
0.282
|
0.543
|
0.086
|
0.247
|
|
|
4.80%
|
30.20%
|
0.18
|
0.212
|
0.259
|
0.254
|
0.513
|
0.042
|
0.230
|
*A little more on wOBA for those who may not know. wOBA was created by Tom Tango for a stat that combined hitting for average, power and plate discipline. The advantage of wOBA over things like OPS is that wOBA weights them in proportion to their actual value instead of evrything weighted equally.
Not all hits are created equal. Batting average would have you believe they are, but think about it: what's more valuable, a single or a homerun? Batting average doesn't account for this difference and slugging percentage doesn't do so accurately (is a double worth twice as much as a single? In short, no). OPS does a good job of combining all the different aspects of hitting (hitting for average, hitting for power, having plate discipline) into one metric, but it weighs slugging percentage the same as on-base percentage, while on-base percentage is actually much more valuable than slugging. To account for all these differences in run values, Tom Tango created wOBA to combine all the different aspects of hitting into one metric, but to weigh them in proportion to their actual value.
If your on Twitter you should definitely follow the . If you're not you should really consider joining, lots of good stuff going on there.
Even though he went 0 for 5 tonight, w/3 K's? Really could've used some of that wOBA tonight.
ReplyKevin you seem to be suffering from Bochyitist, you are puttin far too much weight on one game and making inferences from a very small sample.
ReplyYeah he wasn't great last night but if you watched he still worked the counts and for the most part had good at bats the results just weren't there this time.
If he had gone 5-5 would I have been vindicated? No because it is just one game an in a very long season.
I appreciate the write up and I agree that his hitting statistics haven't been the worst, but look at some of his other stats. He's hitting .255 with runners in scoring position. This stat is saddening: with RISP, Renteria has only 2 extra base hits and has never driven in a runner from 1st base. He has only 11 extra base hits so far.
ReplyHowever, defensively he has little range left and he's only make the easy plays out there. He has no speed in his reaction to the ball off the bat.
I think you are overstating his usefulness on offense and understating how mediocre (if not poor) his D is.
, you are right he hasn't excelled in high leverage situations so far this season. Hitting a measley .238 but this is a very small sample only 22 plate appearances, however for his career he has tended to excell in these same situations hitting a robust .321. I would bet that he is past the days where he will hit like that but I think that his true talent level is higher then his current rate.
ReplyI also think that his decline in defense is a bit overratted as well. Yes his range is down and is now below average however he continues to be relitvly sure handed on balls that he does get to. I think that at best he is an avergae defender and at worst slightly below. Not a liability but not something that you would call a strenght either.
If you put this together you have an average hitter an average defender and you have an average player.
The way he is talked about you would think that he is worthless and that just about anyother guy you trot out there would be better, this is what I have a problem with. He is not a great or even a good player any longer but he is a worthwhile person to have on the roster who provides value that on the market is not easy to replace.
Look again at the list of short stops there are maybe 6 or 7 guys in the national league that I rather have out there. Then look at the Giants minor league guys and again there isn't anyone beating down the door to get in. There is Manny Burris who has put the MLE of .248/ .272/ .281, there is Brandon Crawford who is a glove first guy with a MLE of .192/ .263/ .288.
So my point is that sometimes an averge player at a position where the talent level is shallow is a valuable thing to have. In addition with Uribe we really only have to have him start 2-3 times a week to keep him fresh which has seemed to help.
I don't think that I am overvaluing anything.
Thanks for reading and the comment.
Come now. He is over valued and your stats do lie. Stats are good for a player in his prime and for the hall. You can't use them for a player on the decline. He came off the DL and took playing time from Uribe and Uribe #'s have suffered because of it.
ReplyUribe at SS. Renteria bench player
, If he is on the decline (which I certainly do think he is) it should be easy to see in his stats. And it is, you can see that he had his peak seasons from 2002 to 2007 and since then has seen his production drop off.
ReplySo I guess I don't understand why you can't try to measure a players production just because they are in their decline? To me it makes perfect sense to attempt to quantify how much a player has declined and to attempt to measure what they are producing. If you have a better method for subjectivly evalutating players I would love to hear it.
Also I think you need to check on your claim that he has taken playing time from Uribe. Since he returned from the DL Uribe has sat out a grand total of 6 games, 4 of which he missed with a finger injury against Milwakee/Washington. He also had 2 games where he played but didn't but was still able to get at least 2 plate appearences. I think that he has gotten ample time and has not been negativly effected by Renteria.
I agree that I would prefer for Uribe to get the majority of starts at short but that Renteria can give him a break a couple or three times a week and allow for the other guys in the infield to have a day off.
. . . and all I was doing was making a comment about one game. We're both Giants fans . . . right? It was just a little too coincidental that he went 0-fer (5 w/3Ks!, and left the winning run on 3rd base) on the same day that the post was put up. That's all.
Replymy point was that I take Uribe over Renteria as a daily playerand with all your info and words in support of Renteria... you didn't bother to state the obvious (in my opinion)and that is that Uribe at SS as an everyday player and Renteria off the bench makes tye Giants a better team. Stats or not
Reply